Stein Center News spoke to four 3L Stein Scholars—Sahar Moazami, Herbie Rosen, Kathy Walter, and Jake Hays—about their involvement in Public Interest Resource Center student groups at the Law School, to find out what they have been up to and what motivates them to give back to the Law School community in this way.
Which PIRC group are you engaged with and why?
Walter: I became active with the Suspension Representation Project in part because public service has always been important to me. Prior to law school, I had a long career in various arenas, including business, technology, and teaching, but I also found ways to volunteer and give back. As a part-time evening student with a full-time job running my own company, I spent the first year of law school focused on studying and work. Once I became a 2L, though, I found out about the Suspension Representation Project and knew right away that I wanted to get involved. The group’s training and orientation overlapped with one of my classes and I was nervous about approaching the teacher to ask if I could miss the class so I could go to the training instead. Not only did the professor give me permission to go to the training but he also thanked me for wanting to make a difference! That was an inspiring message and encouraged me to look at student groups in a different way. I have also been active with CLARO, which trains law students to provide advice to unrepresented debtor-defendants with consumer debt cases in New York City Civil Court.
By being active with these groups, I help make a difference in people’s lives, while putting my newly developing legal skills into practice. As soon as I started to work on school suspension and credit debt counseling matters, I saw how everything I was learning in the classroom had an immediate applicability to very vulnerable communities. Civil procedure, legislation and regulation, and administrative law became tools to improve people’s lives, not just concepts to memorize. Advocating for high school students or people in debt, or more recently for people facing domestic violence and refugees facing deportation back to dangerous situations, for example, is one way to understand the lessons learned in the classroom. You must experience what it feels like to be a “zealous advocate” in order to be able to internalize the concept.
Moazami: I originally got involved with Advocates for Sexual Health and Rights (ASHR) as a way to keep my sanity. I went to the PIRC student fair at the beginning of the school year. Hailey Flynn ’16, a fellow Stein Scholar, asked me if I was interested in LGBT rights. I said yes and that was it. Part of what has been so great about being active with ASHR is that we get out of the Law School and do work in the community. For example, we distribute flyers in Queens to try to make things safer for sex workers there. By working with ASHR, I can use the skills I am gaining in law school to make change outside of the classroom.
Rosen: The two PIRC groups I have been active with are Universal Justice and YouthLaw. I went on a fact-finding alternative spring break trip to the
Philippines with Universal Justice, which was incredibly eye-opening. My privilege has meant that I am often ignorant about the suffering taking place in other parts of the world and the trip forced me out of my comfort zone. Additionally, I embarked on the trip with eight students I didn’t know and now they are some of my best friends at the School. The hardest part of participating on the trip was not knowing how to act when we came back.
I witnessed so much poverty and suffering and it wasn’t clear what I could do to alleviate that once I returned to my life as a law student. I now understand that participating on the trip is one way to give back. I can’t solve the drug crisis in the Philippines, but I can learn and tell others about it, which is one step toward making change.
I have also been active with Youth Advocacy Law Association (YouthLaw), which aims to increase understanding of legal practice on behalf of young people and to raise awareness of important policies and issues affecting underserved and underprivileged youth. I was a teacher before I started law school, and I wanted to find a way to continue to apply those experiences and that commitment. When I got to Fordham, I sought out a group that would allow me to maintain continuity with my previous profession, while also integrating the new skills I was gaining. YouthLaw offered me the opportunity to be involved and give back while also learning more about policy issues in the education arena from a legal perspective.
Hays: I am on the board of Environmental Law Advocates. Most of my involvement has focused around organizing the annual fall and spring hikes. The hikes allow students to get out of the city and experience the natural world, which is what we are trying so hard to protect. I met Stein Scholars Mike Zimmerman ’12 and Kelsey Ripper ’13 through ELA the summer before I started at Fordham Law School and I have remained good friends with them ever since. ELA has been a great way to build relationships. In fact, I would say that one of the big benefits of getting involved with PIRC groups is to be able to network and meet like-minded individuals. There are not a lot of faculty members or students at the Law School who are focused on environmental law, so the best way to build a community is through ELA. Last year, ELA organized an environmental justice alternative spring break trip to Florida based on a contact at the Natural Resources Defense Council. We also sponsor panel discussions. Next semester we hope to organize a movie night, an environmental career panel, a spring hike, and maybe another alternative spring break trip.
How has your involvement with PIRC groups impacted your law school experience?
Moazami: I have become much more aware of different issues. For example, I now understand how policies and practices have detrimentally impacted the lives of sex workers and how we can advocate to protect and expand their rights. Since becoming involved with ASHR, I have gained a much greater understanding of all the intersecting issues and what we can do about them. It has also provided a framework for where I want to go with my work after graduation. I always knew I wanted to advocate on behalf of the LGBT community and those with HIV and AIDS. My work with ASHR is helping me focus my energies on directly impacted people and the discrimination they face at school, in prisons, and on the street. Specifically, I want to protect and expand the rights of trans folks because they are so vulnerable.
Rosen: My law school experience has not been dominated by classroom lectures and studying, though there has been a lot of that, too. By being involved with PIRC and SBA groups, I have gotten so much more out of my time as a law student. I am now acutely aware of the benefits and privileges that come with being a lawyer. I have been challenged to internalize new perspectives and to then project them outward. This is a hard place for me to be, because I am now immersed in issues that will not be resolved in the foreseeable future (i.e., racism and poverty). What steps should I be taking now to help make change, even if that change will be incremental in nature?
Walter: For me, the most important lesson provided by PIRC is that even as a student, you can actively participate in advocating on behalf of the most vulnerable members of our community. We won’t be able to solve poverty or provide legal advocacy to all who need it, but we can play a role and we can gain an intimate understanding of the issues, which we can then share with the broader community. When you get to sit next to suspended children and hear their stories, you get to understand the problems from a hands-on perspective, which in turn, gives you a unique vantage point to thinking about solutions. You also bring each story and experience to the next kid you set out to help. As a result, you are able to ask more informed questions, be a better listener. I’m never going to be able to get the faces of the kids I worked with for the last two years out of my head until I make an impact, even if bringing about significant change takes a while. Each hearing builds on the ones that came before. When you combine your own background and experiences with the lives of the children you interact with at the individual hearings, you start to see connections and possibilities.
Hays: The biggest benefit of my involvement in ELA has been the ability to network and find like-minded individuals. You learn about concrete job opportunities, as well as about different types of jobs. It has also been an important mechanism to gain a deeper understanding about various environmental legal issues. It informed my work in the Community Economic Development Clinic and impacted the direction of my legal career. Additionally, ELA members suggest names of experts to invite to be speakers on panels and those speakers then become resources for the rest of us.
What started you on your path to service?
Hays: My commitment to environmental law and policy started at the physical level. I was always interested in environmental ethics and philosophy. I then had a bunch of jobs in remote areas of the country that put me in direct contact with the environment, such as beekeeping and dog sledding. At some point, I shifted emphasis and started on a path that was more practical and pragmatic. Once at law school, committing to studying environmental law made perfect sense. I am a part-time evening student and have worked full-time for Physicians Scientists and Engineers for Healthy Energy for the last 5 ½ years, since before I started at Fordham.
Moazami: I have always been focused on giving back, but there was a particular incident that happened during college that cemented my commitment. While I was a student at Boston University, I got involved with several community service organizations, and in particular with a children’s medical center that served folks affected by HIV and AIDS. We would hang out with and support the kids at the center, who were either there because they were directly affected or a close family member was. We would help them do homework or take them outside to play sports. One day, I was assigned to a child who was in tears when I arrived. I asked a supervisor why she was crying and I was told that her sister had died the night before. It was so unfair, tragic, and needless. I was inspired to use my resources and my privilege to make a difference to people like her and others in any ways I could.
Rosen: I can’t point to a specific moment, but I always knew that I wanted to pursue a service-related path, because it is worthwhile, connects you to people, and allows you to make a difference. I went to Brandeis University, which prides itself on its social justice ethos. I learned what it is like to be an advocate and to be invested and involved. I learned how to really listen to others and use that knowledge to make change. I will continue to seek out opportunities, to engage in pro bono, not as a way to build my resume or for self-gratification, but because my position in life obligates me to give back.
Walter: As a young person, I was active with my church, and at college, I was active with groups such as Habitat for Humanity. When I started working in business, however, I was travelling a lot, working long hours, and earning good money, but I was also feeling empty. I proceeded along those lines for almost a decade, and just when I was about to be promoted, I quit. I started to work in marketing instead and also started to volunteer and use my business degree to help nonprofits. I eventually moved back to New York to team up with an education company to figure out ways to use technology to help teachers and kids, which has been a great way to both give back and earn a living. The work has been inspiring. I came to law school to study education law and technology, which is still my focus, but along the way I found additional opportunities to give back using my new legal skills.
What have been the most challenging aspects of your work? Most rewarding?
Moazami: The most challenging issue is the limited amount of time available to law students. Many of us are over-extended because we care, but we also must make time to be students. It is important to try to be realistic from the get-go. Having strong time-management skills is a big plus, as is the ability to set manageable goals. It is a struggle to make sure passion doesn’t overtake life’s other obligations. What has been most rewarding is when we are able to bring awareness of new issues to the School, even if we just reach 5 people at a time. Also, all of my best friends are from the student groups. What is unique about also being part of the Stein Scholars Program is that it involves students from so many different backgrounds, all with the common goal of trying to do better for our communities. Stein provides a network to share ideas for intersecting work and projects. For example, I was able to suggest to a fellow Stein interested in education and technology issues that she consider addressing privacy concerns for transitioning students. We were able to collaborate because we are part of a shared community!
Rosen: The biggest challenge is the lack of time coupled with the amount of work that needs to be done. I like having my finger in lots of different pots, but maybe that prevents me from exploring particular issues in an in-depth way. Trying to communicate with people who have a different perspective is also a challenge. I want to be engaged in a way that makes a difference. My involvement means that I am learning and being challenged every day, which is good, but it is hard, too.
Walter: There is no end to the people we can help and the legal experience we can gain, even as law students. The challenge is balancing classes, work, and all the hands-on opportunities. But I can tell you, when you learn something in a class and are able to see how it connects with a case you are working on, and you can help a client because of it—it’s totally worth the hours. It really helps knowing folks from Stein Scholars and seeing them in all of my other PIRC and SBA student organizations. I know I can rely on them for support for things I am doing, like the new Education Law Collaborative group that we are building across the Law School, Graduate School of Education, and the School of Social Work to bring together practitioners from different but overlapping fields, to find solutions for the challenges confronting educators.
Hays: The biggest obstacle has been to get people together. That is particularly true in the world of environmental law, since it is not a huge focus at the Law School. Although we are a small group, we have a very strong bond. In fact, I am taking the Community Economic Development Clinic for a second time, in part because I have been able to continue working with WE ACT for Environmental Justice, a Northern Manhattan community organization, on innovative and collective solar options. I have been engaged on this work in conjunction with a fellow Stein Scholar, Rebecca Susko ’18.